The following interview with Matt Thornton was conducted September 8th 1999 by Derrick Cox for use in an upcoming video series:

Part 1

Matt. . .you talk a lot about "Aliveness"  this seems to be your main theme or point whenever you are teaching. It was also the main theme of your last video series. Why do you place so much emphasis on this point as opposed to others?

Aliveness is everything. If an athlete grasps the principle and truly understands what I mean by it. . then they can never be bullshitted again (laughs) that's why I emphasize it so much. I am also constantly being asked... what's better... this or that. . this style or that style...why don't you do this drill anymore...why do you say this doesn't work... The answer to all those questions is ALIVENESS...you see...so once they grasp what that means then about one thousand and one of their questions are answered for them. It's everything.

Do you think most people get it... do they understand aliveness?

Depends...most combat athletes get it right away... in fact to them it would be common sense...by combat athletes I mean Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, wrestlers, boxers, etc... people who train for real, against real resistance and real opponents. Most "martial artists" don't have a clue what it means. They think they know...they think "well what we do is for the street, not sport! Of course we are training with aliveness". But then you see what they are doing and its all dead patterns, flash, one and two step sparring, reference points, and nonsense. In short, its all dead.

What about other JKD people... don't they understand the principle, seems like they above all others would "get it"?

JKD people are some of the worst! (laughs) I have seen some articles and things on the internet where they discuss the word aliveness and its laughable...big words, pseudo philosophy, didactic speech...but you can tell right away that the simple truth of it is lost on them. Look... all you have to do to see if someone understands aliveness is watch them train. 99% of the JKD people I run into...be they "concepts" or "original" guys, are still doing one dead pattern after another. No footwork, no timing, and always, always, always, patterns. NO... I know of only a few JKD people who really grasp what aliveness is all about.

I am still confused... give me an example of where a JKD person might think what they are doing is alive but its not.

Alright...lets take Jun Fan guys. Most still practice endless hours of reference point trapping. They dissect their "entries" against a static man who is standing with his lead arm in one or another "fixed" position. That's about as dead as it gets. So many JKD people dog traditional martial artists like Karate and Kung Fu guys... but then you watch their class and they are teaching people out of a high outside reference point! It's nonsense.

Well I understand what you are saying about the reference points... but what about someone who says that those are just training methods... that they are meant to teach options and reflexes to beginners... which will eventually lead them into a more alive energy drill such as chi sao?

Consider their assumptions. First off is the assumption that you need to begin a brand new student out with a dead pattern. That's a false assumption. Its not necessary! You can train people with aliveness on day one... there is no need to begin with planted feet... fixed positions, and contrived resistance. Second is the assumption that you COULD develop reflexes using a dead pattern...you cannot... train with a dead pattern and get a dead response... their are no reflexes to be had there...no resistance... nothing. Its a waste of time. Third...you said leading into an energy drill such as chi-sao... which essentially means going from one dead pattern to another. Most people who practice chi-sao do it with planted feet... no footwork...or contrived silly footwork... footwork that's rehearsed...its a pattern! Nobody fights like that! No fight on planet earth will ever resemble a chi sao match... in a real fight guys grab you...they grab for your head... they punch you...and not with perfect "centerline" punches either, but with giant Tank Abbot "I am gonna knock your friggin head off"  punches...they tackle...and hug... and knee... that's a fight... a pigeon toed dead pattern wont help you much there.

Well personally I know some JKD concepts people who use these drills only as shells... to add things like you mentioned... knees, elbows...as their student progresses. Don't you think that would be a valid training method?

Perhaps...but certainly not the most efficient, realistic, or helpful training method. Why do you need the pattern? I don't understand the reason for it. Why not just fight for control of the body while putting in punches, knees, elbows...like a Greco Roman wrestlers pummeling drill...or Muay Thai's neck control drill...you don't say "alright. . .we are going to fight for control of the neck... on every 3 and one half rotations through this cycle I am going to insert an elbow...ok, GO." That would be silly... there is no TIMING there. You see fights... real fights...are all about conditioning, and timing. No... instead you simply wrestle for control of that neck...and as you go you randomly put in your strike...no pattern...you FIND the place to put it in out of that mess that is real resistance. That's Alive. I simply do not see the need for a pattern. Even a raw beginner...on day one...he can drill without the pattern and begin to develop real attributes, right away, without getting hurt. If an Instructor says he needs those patterns for beginners so they don't hurt each other, then he is just ignorant about coaching athletes. And you know what... its probably not his fault...he was trained that way and he is just repeating. That's what most humans do. You don't need patterns... and the JKD/Kali & Original JKD world are full of them.

Why? What you are saying seems like common sense... so why is it so prevalent, why would they do it that way for generations... if, as you say its "nonsense"?

I don't know? Who knows. Why did it take a well publicized no hold barred fight, an open challenge, and countless... countless challenge matches by a family from Brazil to teach people the obvious... that fights often hit the ground, and you better know your shit down there when it does? Think about it... I have to give them all the credit in the world... before the Gracies came to our Country everybody just said..."ah, you don't want to be on the ground...you just hit him when he comes in, you just boink him in the eyes, or kick his balls... or bite him... they cant take me down". Why did it take the advent of full contact kickboxing in the late 60's and early 70's to show people that the best place to put their hands was near their face and not on their hip? People become enamored with the mystery that surrounds the Asian martial arts... people are often gullible... they so badly want to believe that their is some 75 year old 110lb Chinese master who can throw people without touching them... or administer a death touch... whatever...it feeds the fantasies they have about beating up 5 football players at once in a parking lot in front of their girlfriend. Its silly. Its a fantasy... but they seem to need it... as far as JKD goes. I think long ago a decision was made somewhere that looking "cool" being able to do 75 knife disarms... or some flashy compound trapping with crisp, snappy sounds passed for having "good form". And the pursuit of that "good form" and  knowledge of endless variations from multiple dead patterns...  took precedence over the pursuit of what it is truly all about... increasing PERFORMANCE. But... I am just guessing... Who cares anyway... its what YOU can do... and how YOU train that counts...let the rest of the world do whatever they want.

You seem to care... otherwise why would you push the point of aliveness so much?

I do that for the people out there who are honestly pursuing the truth in combat. Many of those people are drawn to JKD because of the brilliant philosophy borrowed by Bruce Lee, and either become disillusioned, or lost in a maze of dead patterns. For them I preach aliveness. If someone wants to collect a certificate from a well known "Sifu", or look cool teaching seminars... then their motive is skewed and they will not care, or pay attention to the concept of aliveness. They are not in it to enhance their performance...  they are still tripping on the ego. You cannot do anything for people unless they are motivated to train for the right reason. For me its always about being true to myself. I can't teach something that I know doesn't work. I can't praise something I think is false. I always have to be honest... otherwise I lose touch with who I am. I don't try and offend anybody. And for me its never  never personal... but if someone asks me a question then they can expect an honest reply... even if its going to make them mad.

Alright... well, your first tape series discussed aliveness in depth... so what are you planning on teaching in this next series... what is it you want people to get out of this now.

I base everything I do around five core principles. These five principles are what makes up the curriculum of the Straight Blast Gym. I talked about two of them on the last series... adaptability, and of course aliveness... which is our number one overriding principle. On this series I want to get into all five, as well as teaching a lot more detail as far as stand up, clinch and ground goes. Much more detail then before.

This is interesting to me... tell me what these five principles are.

Well the first is of course aliveness... and all of the principles are made up of three specific elements. I usually illustrate each principle with the figure of a triangle, mostly because this makes it easy for people to remember. For example...for something to be truly alive in what we do then it has have three key elements,  movement, timing, and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then its NOT alive. Movement is of course footwork... and that doesn't mean shuffle step, or pendulum step, or anything like that... it means real footwork... not contrived... not in a pattern... on the ground it means exactly that also... movement... if  the guy is just laying there, not moving as you apply your lock or move... that is not alive. In the clinch its the same... pushing, pulling, moving! Timing is of course just that... if its in a predictable rhythm... a pattern... a repeatable series of sets... then you are not acquiring or developing timing... there is no timing there to be had. And of course energy... swing the stick like someone would really swing it... don't stop at centerline under the assumption that I smacked your hand so the motion freezes there, that's a really bad assumption! (laughs). Punch with the energy of someone who wants to hit you... not like a dead fish... locking your arm out so your partner can look good doing the destruction, or trap, or silat sweep, or whatever. No... you must move, have a sense of timing, and progressive resistance that resembles what you would receive on the street... and no patterns. That's Aliveness... movement, timing, and motion. Its a gauge... is it real or dead...will it transfer over when I spar or when I am attacked or not...  its not that complicated to find out.

Okay... well, list these for me... what's the second principle?

Adaptability... which means many things, but is represented on the triangle by stand up game, clinch game, and ground game. Self explanatory I think... if you are missing any one of those things then you are gonna be in trouble. You must have all three.

Isn't that the same as the four ranges of JKD?

Sure...same concept. I just prefer to use different terms that I think are more indicative of what it really is. Clinching is what happens in real fights... grabbing, pulling... holding with one arm and striking with the other... as opposed to trapping... which I have never seen in a real fight... at least not in the context in which is taught by JKD people. I also think you can have a beautiful stand up game without ever learning how to kick... most of the time you be better off to keep both feet  on the ground in a streetfight anyway. That's not to say we don't work with and against kicks here... its just that I feel the terms stand up, clinch and ground present a more realistic portrait of what fights are. So often people want to make fighting look a certain way... to be a certain thing... instead of just dealing with it as it really exists. The "isness" of it, as Bruce Lee might say.

What is the third principle?

Coaching. Coaching is how pass on the info here. As opposed to teaching. Philosophically its fundamentally different.

In what way?

Teachers have a curriculum. They are trying to pass on a certain amount of information. Coaches enhance performance. That's a fundamental difference in approach. It may seem semantic... but it's not. Not at all. Its totally different.

Give me an example... I still don't see that clear of a distinction.

Okay... when I visit with JKD people, they will often talk about "training". Lets get together and "train"... etc. Okay, cool... then you get together and train and you discover that their version of training is learning more techniques... they want to hook up and learn a new trap, or a new lock, or a new flow drill... then practice a little.. and go home. The "Instructor" fosters this by teaching techniques every class at his "kwoon" or "dojo" or "academy" demonstrating these with his most cooperative student, so he looks really good... the quote un-quote"good form" .and then having the students practice this new "move" in one or another dead pattern... and then they all write the stuff down in their burgeoning notebook, and go home. To me that's NOT training... it may be instruction... poor instruction... but it is in no way training. Now compare that with heading into a "Gym", warming up... practicing whatever it is you are working on that day against a partner who offers progressive resistance in an alive manner... having a coach watch and participate with you... selectively offering pointers that will help your performance... and instead of going home with a giant notebook, you go home with clothes drenched in sweat, and a tired body. That's training... that environment is created and maintained by a coach... not an Instructor.

I guess I see what you are saying... its a different idea about what training really is.

Exactly... to be a good coach here at the Gym you need three core elements... by the way this whole notion, and the three elements were taken directly from a book titled "Coaching for performance" by John Whitmore. Which has more or less been the bible of teaching at the Straight Blast Gym since I first read it several years ago. The three key things are Experience, Awareness, and Responsibility. Experience is pretty self explanatory... you have to have done what it is you are teaching. In other words... how could you ever teach someone to get an armlock out of the guard...  if you had never gotten an armlock out of the guard sparring before? And yet you see so many JKD people teaching these complex locks that they have never pulled off in sparring on the mat before... in fact many of them have probably not sparred much on the mat before... maybe not at all! That's how bad information gets transmitted. Well if Sifu been around forever guy said to do it this way... then this is how you do it. NO... you do it this way because this is how its done... I KNOW that because I have done it. BAM that's a whole other level of teaching and transmitting knowledge... first hand... not hearsay. We have a basic saying here... test everything. Try it yourself. Awareness means the ability to make the athlete aware of what he needs to do to increase his performance. Part of that is communication skills...much of it is listening and observation skills. Anyone can teach a curriculum... 1+1 = 2... but how many people can actually make another person aware of why 1+1 = 2... and make sure that the pupil truly grasps what the hell it is your saying. The third is responsibility. And that basically means being able to make the athlete aware that it is he who is responsible for his own growth... not you. He has to put in the time. You can do that in large part by creating a training environment that is more like a Gym...  like a wrestling, or sports practice as opposed to a series of demonstrations. Just like we were talking about before. Those are the three elements of coaching. I think every athlete should read John Whitmore's book. Its almost the year 2000 and people are still using teaching methods that are outdated, and slow by even 1965 standards.

Wow... okay... what about the fourth principle?

The fourth principle is Attitude and Philosophy. And that's probably the one that's the most important to me personally... especially when I am looking to make someone a Coach with our Gym. I can teach almost anyone to fight. And if a person posses a certain level of intelligence, I can help them to be a good coach as well... but if they don't grasp the importance of the fourth principle then I believe they will eventually get lost along the path. Lost in the woods so to speak. Some people just don't get it.

Attitude & Philosophy... that's a pretty broad topic. Can you be more specific?

I can be very specific. Again this principle is illustrated with three key areas, or basic assertions... no ritual, no titles, and no terminology. In other words... reality without ritual leads to truth. All three are a must as far as I am concerned.

You've lost me again.. no ritual... what exactly do you mean... why would ritual per se be a bad thing at all?

Because it distracts from the truth. It distracts from the pursuit of better performance.

How so? Be specific.

Alright... let me think of an analogy....okay, lets say a group of guys, who have been training together in martial arts, decide they want to see what reality in fighting is really all about. They want to experience it for real... without hitting the bars... but real... very real... against each other. So they come up with a brilliant idea... simple, as most brilliant ideas are, but genius none the less...they decide to get together... outside the dojo, at a local park, put on as little equipment as possible, and just fight. Just fight. Just do it... see what its like, feel what it fells like... work on what it is, not what it should be... brilliant idea. So they meet for many months... fight many times... a few injuries... but slowly, what is important, and what works in a real fight begins to reveal itself to them, and one by one they begin to increase their own performances in that arena. They learn to really fight. Follow me so far?

Sure...

Okay... then after a year or so... one or two of them decides they need a name for what they do... what is it we do? is it kung fu? is it karate? is it wrestling? is it boxing? what is it... you see, they want a name. So they decide on Park Fu. We do Park Fu... then some time passes and they decide for whatever reason that they should create some hierarchy... some pecking order... so they have park fu level one, and park fu level two, and a park fu apprentice guru, and a park fu guru...etc etc... then they decide they need a salutation... and a park fu handshake... and pretty soon... this SIMPLE... BRILLIANT... TRUE... idea, becomes lost in a mire of ritual. New park fu initiates evaluate their standing within the park fu group by how close they are to the original park fu member...as opposed to their own personal performance. In other words I am a first generation member because I trained directly under park fu founder "so and so"...  they are measuring their worth by how close they are to the keeper of the magic book... the original park fu creator becomes a scared cow of sorts... his park fu followers sheepishly interpret all their teachers weird behavior as being consciously designed to test them, and if that fails they take refuge in what they call "loyalty"... which really amounts to a sentimental failure to face certain facts. And you know what you have after a generation or two?

What?

Lord of the flies... you have lord of the flies man... that's what it is. The  truth is lost.

That's a disturbing analogy.

I suppose... but only because its so common... anyway, the second assertion is... no terminology... again, this is not just a semantic difference, its a very important rule. When you begin to give individual movements names... ESPECIALLY names from a foreign culture, people become silly.

Again... give me an example.

Okay... lets say an O'ou tek or hook kick...lets say that that person is working this kick and they want to know what a proper O'ou tek should look like... and when an O'ou tek is properly used... and what are some good O'ou tek training methods... etc. You know what I want them to worry about instead... I want them to wonder two things about their kick...  can I make it land, and can I make it hurt...  can I make it work when I spar, and if not, why not. Who cares what the hell you call it! You see... when you kick someone in the nuts they are not going to know the difference between an O'ou tek, or a foute, or a "preying mantis raises its leg" all their going to know is that you just kicked them in the balls. An elbow is an elbow, a knee is knee, a punch is a punch, a kick is a kick... it doesn't matter what part of the world it comes from! That's why we allow no terminology at the Gym.

No ritual, and no terminology... what was the third point?

No titles... also very important.

Don't you think the use of terms like Sifu and Sensei in traditional martial arts teach humility to the students, and show proper respect?

Not at all... in fact I think they can eventually lead to the opposite. The most obnoxious, ego maniacal people I have ever met have been traditional martial arts "masters"... often cocky... overweight... scared inside, but very very haughty on the outside. The posses the quintessential beggars humility.

What's the beggars humility?

Its a simple idea... that their are two different types of humility... a beggars humility, and a fighters humility. I beggar will bow down and scrape the floor for any man he deems superior to himself. But, at the same time, he will demand that anyone he deems as inferior... bow down and scrape the floor for him. The fighter bows down to no man, and allows no man to bow down to him. You have to remember that most Asian cultures are cast societies. Its common for them to refer to each other according to social status when born. I am an American... and I personally don't buy into that socioeconomic idea. We always want a fighters humility here. Their are no sifus or gurus at the Straight Blast Gym. We all work out and train together.

What about the respect afforded an Instructor.

What about it. I have never experienced a problem with respect. You see people here will respect the Instructors because the Instructors will get out into the class and wrestle or spar with any and everybody at the Gym. I will wrestle with anybody that walks into the Gym. Its not about winning... or being a tough guy, or anything like that... no... its about not being afraid to train for real in front of, or with your students... or as I would prefer to say...  fellow athletes. That's very different from a sifu... a sifu has a position to defend... "I am a Sifu, and as such I must remain aloof from my students, and I must not spar with them... as I must preserve this illusion if Sifudom that I posses" (laughs)... you see, its all a big ego trip. And of course eventually that "sifu" becomes very insecure... because he knows in his heart, since he has not been training and sparring, that some of his own students can probably work him over now... which of course makes him even more insecure... its all a vicious cycle. Usually the sifu becomes a bitter angry guy... all because he was to scared to let go of his position and just be an athlete..... and besides that, you know what, I train every day with Olympic level wrestlers, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guys, and boxers... I'd feel silly having anyone call me a sifu (laughs).

So attitude and philosophy... the fourth principle of your Gym is composed of no ritual, no terminology, and no titles.

You got it.

What's the fifth principle... the last principle?

Yes... the last principle... and one of the most important. The fifth principle is conditioning. And again, on the triangle this is shown as stamina, strength, and flexibility.

Simple enough.

Yes, simple... but OH so important. Important enough to be one of the five pillars of our Gym.

Because it makes you a better fighter.

Yes and no... because you cant be much of a fighter without conditioning. Just to DO what we do at all you need to be in some kind of athletic shape... have some muscle tone, some cardio, and a certain flexibility... otherwise you will constantly be injured. Now, to do what we do and do it well... then you need to be in good shape, athletic shape. Finally, to do what we do, and reach your own personal full potential, you need to be in, and stay in, great shape. And I like to think that all of us want to reach our own full potential... whatever that may be. As such, conditioning must be a priority.

What about people who aren't in great shape... maybe they are older.

Look this is almost 2000, their is absolutely no reason that someone cannot get themselves in shape enough to be athletic to some degree... regardless of age. And it doesn't have to be just what we do either. If someone came to me and said "Matt, I want to start playing in pick up basketball games three days a week at the park" then I'd tell them that they should get in shape so they don't get injured. No matter what you are doing, bike riding, basketball, tennis, swimming, whatever... you need to maintain a certain level of conditioning in order to keep your body injury free, and allow yourself to reach new levels of achievement. I don't know why anyone would think what we do would be any different.

That's great... so those are the five principles of the Gym.

Yes, aliveness, adaptability, coaching, attitude & philosophy and conditioning. In a nutshell, that's what we are about.

What about this constant debate over original or concepts JKD?

What about it.

Well... what do you think about it?

I don't.

What do you mean you don't think about it?

I mean who really cares. What I do is coach fighters, attempt everyday to increase my own personal performance, and hopefully become a better human as a result. The equation of original JKD and conceptual JKD just doesn't factor in to any of that. Nobody here at a Straight Blast Gym would care about that, myself included.

Okay... I see your point. But aren't you also dodging the question a little bit. You told me just a few minutes ago that if someone asked you a question you would give them an honest answer. I have to believe that at some time or another you had given this whole JKD debate some thought, and I would like to know your honest opinion on the whole issue.

(continued...)