Part two of an interview with Matt Thornton, conducted on September 8th, 1999 by Derrick Cox for use in an upcoming video series:

Okay Derrick, give me a specific question and I will give you a specific answer.

Alright... what do you think of the whole "Original JKD" movement?

Okay, first off I want to make this point. If you asked any of my students or members of the Straight Blast Gym this question they couldn't give you an answer. They couldn't give you an answer because they wouldn't know what the hell you were talking about... and I am extremely proud of that.

What do you mean?

I mean that I am proud that the Straight Blast Gym is a Gym in the truest sense of the word. People come here to train, to achieve new levels of performance, and to learn about themselves. Political discussions about JKD this or that, just do not enter into the equation, and they never will.

I see... well now that you have gotten that disclaimer out of the way... what is your opinion on all this.

No no Derrick, its not just a disclaimer. You see... nobody ever asks me this at my Gyms, EVER. You see... thats an important point. It goes to the heart of a students true intentions...  their motive... Straight Blast Gym people are here for the training... not because they are Bruce Lee groupies... or because they want a certificate from a famous sifu... nope... they are here to train. Do you understand the distinction?

Yes... I completely understand.

Now... my personal opinion on Original JKD is another matter. It is simply my personal opinion. An educated opinion, I have been in and around this stuff for awhile now... I attended the first Nucleus meeting just to check it out and see what it was all about. Myself and one of my friends from the Gym, Steve Boyd, went.

So what did you think of all of it?

It was alright... it had absolutely nothing to do with fighting... thats for damn sure. I have to honestly say it was like attending a dungeons and dragons convention as far as the type of crowd that was their (laughs)... ...for the most part they were completely harmless. I guess it's like going to a fan club or something like that...  I don't know.

Thats all you have to say about this? Come on Matt... you must have some opinion here.

Sure... alright, look, how much clearer can I be...  it has nothing to do with fighting. Its not a discussion about the best ways to train athletes for top performance. Its not a meeting about "how the hell do we deal with these monster giant wrestlers"... no... for the most part its lots of talk about terminology, and what Bruce did at different points in his life. And you know what... thats cool... its not my thing! But its fine. Who cares. Now... if you ask me, is that JKD... HELL NO. The most poignant thing I heard at that meeting was a two minute speech by Jesse Glover who basically said... to paraphrase...  "Bruce was a very physical guy, and we should remember that"... which was a point well taken when you were talking to the audience he was addressing. A beautiful, concise point about conditioning. Look... in my mind the perfect JKD man... as outlined I think very clearly by Bruce Lee in all his writings, and borrowed brilliantly from the great Krishnamurti, is a self actualized man... you know, a man beyond titles, terminology, styles, a man that doesn't follow any other men, or Icons, and who doesn't need any followers or affirmation from others outside himself. To me thats a true JKD man. I have met a few men like that, but they have always been athletes.

So let me understand, you are saying that JKD cannot, or should not become a "style", a way... right? Correct me if I am wrong, I am trying to understand here.

Let me use another example... I am going to describe a curriculum to you and you tell me what it is, ok?

Alright.

Okay... the idea is to utilize western boxing... emphasizing a strong lead. Learning to develop what is called a "stop"... or the ability to intercept your opponents movements with that lead. If your opponent is well guarded... or hesitates to lead, then you can draw his hands down with strong low kicks to the shin and legs... alright, give me name now.

Okay, thats obviously Jun Fan JKD, sounds similar anyway.

Beautiful... okay, now I am going to add a few things and then you tell me what we have got alright.

Okay.

Alright... we are going to practice striking the inside of the bicep, and nerve center just under the arm... this in case we are out boxed and need to create a good opening... finally, we are going to add Jiu-Jitsu... or ground fighting. In particular, the mount position, and some basic self defense moves and armlocks... what do we have now?

Okay... JKD concepts... the Filipino destructions and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, a concepts curriculum.

Would you say that all that put together would be fairly cutting edge?

Yes, I would say so... I think it is... yes, it is.

Good... now here is my point. All the above mentioned curriculum was written down in detail by a guy named Professor Lewis. He wrote it in a book titled "The new science" .

Okay... so what, he is a JKD guy, or stole the JKD curriculum.

Actually, I would hesitate to say that... you see... the book was published in 1906.

(pause)

Wow... alright... so where are we at then?

Where we are at is the fact that as the wise King Solomon said "their ain't nothing new under the sun". In fact Bruce probably had this book in his library... or maybe not, maybe he came to the same conclusions as you logically will if what you do is based around reality... point is, who cares how he came up with it... its not his, its not Professor Lewis's, its not Chinese, its not Filipino... it is the property of whomever can make it work... it belongs to whomever has the balls and attributes to own it... to own it through training, sparring, thinking and growing. NOT by following an Icon... a "sifu" a "sijo", a "guru"... be he a Jun Fan JKD Icon, or a concepts Icon... truth is truth. So you see the very idea of an original jeet kune do is a joke... its a myth... there is only what you can do... what can YOU do Derrick... not what Bruce Lee could do. The idea that you would create yet another hierarchy... yet another set of rules, yet another "system" is an affront to everything Bruce Lee said, or more properly what Krishnamurti said... I UNDERSTAND it... in the sense that I understand why it happens... most people are weak and need that affirmation of a style, a leader, a founder, and a sifu... most people need it... so it exists... I guess in much the same way as organized religion exists... the masses may need it... but, NO... thats not JKD, my friend,.... thats certainly not it.

Okay then... I think you have probably made your point there (laughs). What about the concepts approach then?

To me its all about motive. I look in the magazines and I see these adverts for these concepts Instructors and the whole ad space... a friggin paragraph, is devoted to certified by: Instructor blah blah sifu blah blah, guru blah blah... I swear to you they list ten or eleven names! And thats their ad, thats what, or who they are... this is me, I am this... certified by. It's almost funny if it was not so truly sad. So pathetic... .thats a strong word... but it really is pathetic... very sad.

I don't follow.

They are receiving their self worth, and advertising themselves through attachment to another. See, these are guys motivated by prestige... by a certificate... NOT performance... so because their original motive is skewed, everything they do from there on out will be false, skewed, wrong. Its about collecting affiliations, making connections, talking gossip, controlling seminars, getting a new certificate... everything but performance. These are guys that I can almost promise you enforce a "call me sifu" rule. Who never spar with their own students...or if they do, they give them rules like... okay... you get a jab and I am all hands (laughs)... I know that sounds so weird, but its true! A strange preppy culture. strange, strange.

And you are saying that this is what Concepts JKD people are like.

Many. Not all... but sadly alot. I'ts really a weird world, filled with many weird people. I cannot really put my finger on it... but the best way I can explain it to you is to tell you that the motive of people like this is skewed from the start. They are not pursuing truth... just an image. I will give you a concrete example. About eight or nine years ago Paul Vunak showed some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to me at a seminar. I was hooked right away, I loved it! Only Paul and a gentleman named Hal Faulkner were involved with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu at that time. Everybody else... as far as the JKD world I mean... was off doing more esoteric stuff... Silat and such. But Paul... he knew... he knew the truth about it you see... he knew because he'd gone down and actually trained with the Gracies... he knew first hand what they could do. All the JKD people would say "ahh, thats just Judo... or you just bite them, you dont want to be rolling on the ground" stuff like that... excuses to stay ignorant... but Paul... he knew the truth. Then the UFC's hit. everyone saw Royce. Now everybody wanted to do Jits... but you know what... with the exception of Pauls PFS people, and a few others like Chris Haeuter, the rest of the JKD guys where still pretty much avoiding the whole scene. To much ego to show up and get their ass kicked by some bad ass Brazilian I guess (laughs). Anyway... now Dan Inosanto does it. Which I think is FANTASTIC, and a true testament to his character. Here he is, a legend, and an older man... and yet he is on the mat nearly every day! In fact Rigan (Rigan Machado) said that Dan was probably the most dedicated student he has ever had in the sense that he never misses a private lesson. Thats fantastic. But here is my point... now all those other JKD guys... guess what... now they are getting on the mat. Or more properly stated... many are bringing people to their schools to get on the mat for them (laughs)... Not because they discovered the truth like Paul did... no... because they want to do what Dan Inosanto does... I can promise you that if Dan Inosanto decided for whatever reason to take up shotokan, you would have a rush of clipit & wrestling shoe wearing JKD concepts people on a mad hunt to get a Shotokan "certificate". Preferably with whomever Dan Inosanto was studying with, that way they could say they learned from Dan's teacher. Its really sad... and its disrespectful to both Dan Inosanto, and the memory of an innovator and maverick like Bruce Lee... but its true. JKD Concepts is filled with so many sheep.

I see... well nobody is ever going to criticize you for mincing words!

I hope not... that would be cowardly wouldn't it.

Yes, I suppose so. So tell me... it seems like you are critical of the whole JKD community at large, are their any positive things, or Instructors you endorse at all?

Of course... in terms of JKD I would say that my friend Burt Richardson has a curriculum very similar to ours. He has also helped me alot with our stick curriculum and many other things... our weapons curriculum here at the Straight blast Gym is all Burt. Their are also alot of other great Instructors that don't get much press as "JKD" guys, but really are... like Chris Haueter, who is a black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but is also a well rounded JKD guy. Egan Inoue is another. In fact I would classify Randy Couture as a true JKD man... in the real sense of the word. He learns whatever he can to be a better fighter, adapts it to his game, and is capable of fighting well at all ranges. A true JKD man. You have to re-think what JKD means. If it doesn't mean somebody that can actually fight at all ranges... not pretend to fight... not certified to fight... but who can actually fight... if it doesnt mean at least that, then it's meaningless.

What about those that say you can be a good teacher and a good technician without necessarily being a good fighter.

Thats nonsense. Think about it... how can you be a good technician if you can't fight? It doesn't make any sense! You don't say... hey that guy is a good boxing technician... but when he spars he just gets mauled everytime. Or that wrestler is a good technician, but his takedowns suck... or that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu guy is a good technician, but he cant fight on the ground at all. If you said that you would sound insane! But people say that in JKD all the time. Its nonsense. Another in a long line of myths. You can be a tough fighter without being technical, due to size or strength, etc. But you cannot be a good technician without being able to fight, its impossible. Its similar to when people tell me they think I have taken the art out of martial arts... that its all about fighting only with us... I reply, art of what? If it doesn't work... where the hell is the art! You see the art is in the performance, the doing... the well timed punch, the flawless takedown, the perfectly executed armbar... etc. Thats art. Like Tiger Woods swing, Michael Jordan's lay up... etc. Thats real art. The rest... the rest is just looking fancy in front of people who dont know any better... its not really art at all. Art is in the performance! ...so many myths.

You don't think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you take such a functional approach?

No, I think its the opposite. I think you miss the spiritual part of all this when you follow a Sifu and bow to ritual. The spiritual journey in all this exists in the DOING... the action of it. The actual doing... not the certificate, not the new techniques of it, not the talking about it, not the organization of it, not the certification of it, not the demonstration of it... NO... in the doing of it... thats where the spiritual aspects are. Its the heroes journey as outlined by Joseph Campbell. You have to have the balls to stand on your own, and face your demons. We do that through the environment created by resisting opponents. The more functional, the more contact, the more likely you are to confront your own ego. When their are no Sifus, no one can remain aloof. Everybody must step on the mat in front of others and show what they can actually do. For real... not a demonstration... but for real. You must tap out, get hit in the face, get tackled and kicked. We all do. We all must. We all meet our own ego. Thats the beginning of the spiritual journey. You see... do you understand? The rest is hippie bullshit. They may use semantics that sound spiritual... but its all hypocrisy. You cant fool yourself... they become bitter. Better to be honest and just train.

I am not sure what else to ask... thanks much for the interview.

Anytime.

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