Interview conducted by Luis Gutierrez

Lately you have answered much of the debate on BJJ's part in the SBG curriculum using the term's vehicle and delivery system. Care to elaborate on them? The debates stemmed from you stating that BJJ was indeed the best existing platform from which to develop a complete ground game.

Sure, basically that whole conversation was a great example as to why our zero terminology rule at the SBG's is an important guideline. People easily become hung up on words, and as Krishnamurti was fond of saying, "The word is not the thing!"

One person asks why a lot of JKD'rs are still not doing BJJ, which is a fantastic question that I feel gets to the heart of what's wrong with JKD. And yet the JKD people tend to have a knee jerk reaction and re-state the old clichés of "BJJ is just one of many Arts that do groundwork, what about Silat, or Dumog. There is no superior Art, etc." The reality is that there is a superior delivery system. But, because the word 'style' was used people become confused.

Everyone who teaches functional ground fighting these days is incorporating the guard, mount, etc. They may call it Shooto, or Submission wrestling, etc. But, it's the delivery system of BJJ. Since the Brazilians brought that delivery system to prominence I feel it's important to give them credit. But ultimately, the name of the style is not important. The reality that the delivery system is backed by principles of leverage and timing, and works against resisting opponents; The fact that it is by nature, "Alive", is what is important. In other words if you are not familiar with the delivery system of positions, and submissions that is found in BJJ, i.e., the guard, mount, escapes from positions, fundamental submissions, etc., then you can't fight on the ground. If you can't fight on the ground. . .you can't fight. That is what is important.

Can you give me a better example of what you mean when you say 'delivery system'?

Sure. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu could be called a 'style'. Shooto could be called a 'style'. But, if you took a close look at two of the top players, as an example I will say Rumino Sato of Shooto, and Egan Inoue of BJJ, then you would see that they are using the same delivery system. They both train the same positions, guard, mount, cross sides, head and arm, etc. The same submissions, armbars, leg locks, chokes, etc. And the same types of drills, passing the guard, drilling leg locks, etc. So they essentially train in the same art on the ground, the same delivery system. So the Shooto, BJJ name becomes moot at that point. Without that delivery system neither one would be as good of a fighter on the ground. That is just a fact. Imagine if Sato didn't know what the guard was, or could never hold that position, or if Egan didn't train his escapes from mount.

So a delivery system is just that, a system of body mechanics, or movements. Then to clarify, by your definition what is a 'style'?

Good question. A style is an individuals personal method of application. The important point is that you cannot ever have a personal style if what you are doing is not Alive.

Here is an example. Both JJ Machado and Rigan Machado teach Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. If you asked them to teach you a kimura armlock from mount position I am sure they would both teach you the exact same method of delivery. How to set your weight, hold position, crank the joint, etc. That is because there IS A BEST WAY TO DO THIS. That may not be the politically correct thing to say, but it is the truth.

Now as far as 'style' goes. Both have a totally different style. Rigan is slow and crushing, and works an amazing top game that makes you feel like a crushed bug. JJ has a fast, machine gun like, attacking game from the guard. JJ puts the word active into his guard game in a whole new way! So they both have very different styles, but the same delivery system. See the distinction?

Absolutely.

Now here is the main point. Neither one would ever reach a point of developing their own 'style' if it wasn't for sparring, and training Alive. If what you are doing is not Alive, then you can never reach a point of developing your own style. It's not a matter of taking different pieces from different arts, (the Concepts method), or learning an imitating someone else's style, (the Original method). It's a matter of training the basic delivery systems and then training Alive, and developing your own 'style'. That process is JKD. And very few people get that.

So without Aliveness there is no JKD.

Exactly! No Aliveness equals not reaching the point of developing your own 'style', your own game. Not reaching your own style equals not doing JKD. JKD is not a matter of tracing your lineage back to a certain person. It's not a matter of having some ink printed on a piece of paper from Kinkos. It is not a matter of accumulating a mass of dead pattern drills, or chi sau skill. Doing JKD is a matter of reaching a point in fighting where you begin to develop your own personal 'style' in all ranges of combat. That can ONLY be done through Aliveness. That is just the reality of things, and it's a lack of understanding about this point that has lead to all the confusion, and nonsense in the JKD, and Martial Arts world.

What about the other principles you teach?

They are important also, but they all fall into place naturally if Aliveness is the priority. Look:

1. Aliveness
2. Adaptability
3. Conditioning
4. Coaching
5. Attitude and philosophy.

If you are truly training with Aliveness than by necessity you will incorporate the other four principles of the Gym. Aliveness dictates that you be 2) Adaptable, in order to be adaptable you must maintain an acceptable degree of 3) Conditioning. Aliveness demands 4) Coaching, not to spoon feed you techniques but to help you solve the problems that will present themselves as you begin to train with a resisting opponent. Aliveness is Experiential Learning at its best. You find for yourself, what works and what does not. Aliveness demands that you leave your ego at the door, engendering the 5 )Attitude and Philosophy; No Titles, No Rituals and No Terminology. It all falls into place.

So 'delivery systems' are the menus, and Aliveness is the meals.

Well said. Aliveness is the territory, delivery systems are the map. Unfortunately most Martial Artists, and JKD Instructors don't even have the right map. Modern day MMA fighters and athletes are using the most current and updated maps. They include all the topography, and details of the actual land itself. But most Martial Artists are looking at Maps that where drawn in the 1600's. The Original JKD people have maps that still have pictures of sea monsters and Neptune on them. And the JKD Concepts people have at least four maps for every area, and most of them are completely wrong. They show mountains where the are flat lands, and deserts where there are oceans!

If you say all Arts are equal then you do the public a huge disservice, all in the name of political correctness, or non-confrontation. The reality is some delivery systems are far superior to others. That is why everyone that spars and competes on the ground today uses a delivery system that looks like BJJ.

I want to show people the modern day, accurate map, and then I want to get them off the map and on the territory as soon as possible. Off the menu, and into the meal. Get them into the digestion phase, get them into JKD.

Why do you think there are a lot of Instructors that are still not teaching with Aliveness?

Two reasons. One is ignorance. They honestly just don't know exactly what Aliveness us.

Two is fear. They are smart enough to know what Aliveness is, but the curriculum that such a principle would demand is something they are scared to get into 100% of the time. They have too much they would need to throw away, or stop teaching. They have a position or reputation that they have spent Years developing, and they feel like they have come to far to step back and admit that perhaps they where wrong in the past, and that there is a better way.

That's to bad, because that attitude prevents growth, and produces fear. Fear leads to anger, and that anger comes out as a defensive reaction to what the SBG stands for.

It still seems like such common sense. As far as those that do understand what Aliveness is, but still don't promote it, what excuses do they give?

Well so far I would say these are the ones I have run into:

1) When the SBG first began getting some publicity the common excuse use to downplay what we do was, "Oh that, Aliveness, ya we do that". Now keep in mind that it would Aikido people, or Wing Chun people, or Shotokan people. People who obviously personified what Aliveness is not. Rather then come to terms with the arguments made they simply claim it as their own. As far as the rest of the JKD community at large is concerned I have yet to meet an Instructor who says his training is not 'Alive'. Everyone now claims what they do is Alive, but when you watch their classes you see the same dead patterns, reference points, jurus, one and two step sparring, contrived trapping drills, and seminar 'show' moves. All done under the excuses of "self perfection", "students want them, as Alive training is to 'rough'", "street effectiveness/not sports", or my personal favorite, "building blocks to be learned and discarded later". So giving a more detailed explanation of what Aliveness is was the next step, then . . .

2) "Oh, well these are sports guys. They do sports, it's not for self defense." You can read Sharp's story about the DT Instructor as a classic example of this one. Now I think we have done a pretty good job of explaining that we DO actually train PRIMARILY for self-defense. Its just that since what we do is Alive, it resembles how you would train for sports (go figure). Now many LE people and Military people are beginning to use our curriculum and
methods. So then the next step was. . . .

3) "Well ya but training like that is to rough, or just for 'big' strong guys." Again, I feel we have done a good job of putting that one to rest based on the roll call in our Gyms. You teach this to children, I teach to women, and some of my best Instructors are actually small by any standard. The injury rate is very low. In fact I seldom see anyone ever get injured beyond an occasional black eye, or turf toe. That 'excuse' is simply not true. So then it became. . . . .

4) "Yes, but you can't teach beginners that way. How can you teach a whole seminar full of people that way. It would look chaotic." Again, simply not true. I teach seminars all over the world without the aid of dead patterns. I teach stick, blade, ground, clinch, stand up, whatever, without ever busting into a pattern. All the while people learn quickly, have fun, laugh, and stay injury free. . .amazing!? So then it becomes. . . .

5) "Yes, but they have thrown all the 'self perfection' or 'spiritual side' away". Again, I have gone to lengths to explain that I believe in reality the opposite is true. Training athletically gets a person on a faster track of self-actualization, then all the BS dead pattern nonsense of traditional martial arts do when combined together! This is true because what we do is TRUE. It's honest, it's based on performance. Not another memorized pattern, or well defined dance step.

6) That leaves the final, last bastion of a person, Sifu, Guro, trying to defend his position. . "Well, they are all thugs. They miss the point of MA's". Amazing that those statements are always made by people who have never visited any SBG. What a coincidence!

It is very obvious, based on the skills that are being taught, the way they are taught, and the environment they are taught in, that Aliveness is a truly rare beast in the JKD world.

Out of all of those the only one I believe anyone would ever buy into is that the reference points, and static drills are just a starting point. Something to move beyond.

Yes and no. As you know we use a Coaching method that I call the I method. When you use this Coaching method the skills that are taught look exactly the same when you first show them in a beginners class, as they do when you spar them. The difference is only the level of resistance that the movement is executed under. Contrast that with what you see these other Instructors doing. They teach a move as a 'starting point', but when it comes time to 'functonalize' the movement it does not look anything like what they started with.

As an example, in wrestling a beginner may practice a double leg without resistance at first (what we call the Introduction stage/ introducing the skill), then move on to isolation sparring, just working that double (what we call the Isolation stage/ isolating the skill), and finally progressing to a full on match where you simply fight for takedown, (what we call the Integration stage/integrating the skill into your total game). Throughout that entire process the mechanics of a double leg always stay the same. Someone practicing a double leg on a practice dummy for the first time will work the fundamentals of that move in the exact same fashion as someone who is using it in an Olympic level match. To a novice it looks exactly the same. Contrast that with the typical JKDC curriculum. Students are taught reference point trapping, or lop sau cycle, or hubud, or pak sau cycle, or sombrada, and then told that is the introduction stage. To be used as a beginning and later made Alive. But, unlike wrestling, when the student attempts to use those skills in all out sparring they don't resemble anything even close to what they where when they did the dead pattern drilling. All the while the JKDC Instructor remains sure that what he is doing is "Alive". There in exists the problem.

So all those above stated reasons are why you keep pushing your message of Aliveness.

Exactly, . . .it's not that SBG Instructors like yourself, Paul Sharp, Rodney, Adam, or myself feel the need to justify why we do what we do. It is in reality the fact that the message of Aliveness needs to get out. And for every bonehead who argues the point, or fails to grasp the distinction, there are five intelligent people who are truly seeking truth. They send an e-mail, or drop into an SBG class and are grateful that they finally found a home. So it's for those people that we try and get the message out. It's the boneheads that provide us with the chance to make our points. Thanks boneheads!

Do you think there will be an excuse #8?

Oh ya, in fact I think we have already seen it. It's the faulty logic of "Yes, but there are thousands of people all over the world in Martial Arts, and JKD, who do these drills, and have been doing them for Years."

The problem with that logic is that it is exactly the same type reasoning Bruce Lee ran against, fought, and preached against. It is exactly what the traditional Gung Fu, and Karate people said when he began to introduce boxing, and economy of motion into Martial Arts. It's the logic used by the status quo who fear change, and have a position to defend.

I know you hate the word 'goals', but what is the main message, or goal for the Gym you want to hit this Year, in 2002?

To sum it up in one word it would be, 'prioritize'!

Paul Vunak recently made a post he called the state of the union for PFS. In it he had some kind things to say about the SBG, but in addition he made the following statement:

"I got into a fight with a very famous Wing Chun man (I'm not going to mention his name). When the fight began, I entered with my straight blast, but instead of him turning and covering like everyone else, He occupied centerline as a response, and we were stuck at a reference point. This precipitated a perk Sao/lop Sao from me, and I followed up with several elbows to the face, and was pleased with the result. The very poignant lesson that I learned was this: The only time you ever need to do a Wing Chun trap is if you’re fighting a Wing Chun man who happens to occupy center line. Otherwise, the vast majority of the time, one never needs to trap the arms at all. This is why over the many years to follow, when people hear me refer to trapping, I'm talking about an entry, straight blast, and head butting, kneeing and elbowing…not some pak sao! "

I think that took a lot of guts to say. I see Paul as a pioneer in the JKD world. And as far trapping is concerned I see him as the best bar none, with the exception of Dan Inosanto. And I say that as someone who has seen many Wing Chun people, Original JKD guys, etc. If Paul says the only time you would ever use wing chun based hand trapping is in a fight with a wing chun man, I believe him!

The problem is most JKD Concepts Instructors teach wing Chun based trapping as if it was one of the fundamentals you need for fighting. It clearly is not.

Speaking plainly, I am not concerned at all that any of the SBG Instructors are ever going to get into a fight with a wing Chun man. And if they did, I am sure they would do fine with the simple tools of boxing, wrestling, and BJJ that we prefer to functionalize. In fact I think most people would be fine with simple boxing against such an opponent. As far as I am concerned, someone that does not have that boxing 'delivery system' (there is that word again) is someone that probably cannot fight on their feet anyway.

The opponents to be worried about these days are strong, conditioned, wrestlers who are going to ground and pound you into a bloody pulp. Or fast, athletic, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu people, who are going to body lock, mount, and pound you into a bloody pulp. Also, many people in the USA have a wrestling background. From High School, or College. The odds of getting into a fight with a wrestler, Judoka, or even a BJJ'r are a million time higher then ever meeting that mythically dangerous wing chun man.

Now as you look around the Country and see what most JKD Instructors are teaching it is high outside reference points, pak sau cycles, lop sau cycles, etc. Those seem to be basics most teach right away. However, real basics that are needed for fighting in the clinch, simple things that we consider fundamental to fighting like a turtle neck when someone grabs you in a neck tie; a whizzer to defend the Brazilian body lock, or bear hug; headlock escapes against a wrestler, or Judo players headlock; spider guard defense vs a wrestlers ground and pound strategy; and perhaps one of the simplest and most important skills for real fighting, the simple level change. (If you can't change levels, then you probably wont be able to stay on your feet and defend against even a simple tackle.) are totally ignored.

How many JKD schools are teaching level changes as a basic? It's ridiculous. These things are not even touched on most of the time. So the priorities are completely and totally out of whack! Obviously I am painting with a broad brush here. Some schools do prioritize. My point is those Gyms are rare.

It's time for JKD people, that still care about whether or not what they are teaching will help a beginner defend himself, to throw out, and re-tool their entire beginner curriculum. It is time to PRIORITZE. Work against the probable, not just the possible. That will be what I preach in 2002. If somebody grabs your neck and you don't even know how to 'turtle neck' properly so that you don't get immediately snapped down into a knee to the face or a choke, then don't friggin worry about a lop sau! You have other things to worry about. Prioritize!

What about business goals, tape projects, etc.?

Well I have one more series in my head I want to shoot this Year. I promise it will be the best edited, and most entertaining series I have ever put out.

It will be a three tape series. Tape one will be called "Streetfighting ABC's" and I think it will put to rest the 'SBG is a sports Gym' nonsense once and for all. It will show combat athletes how to use the MMA curriculum for self defense in the streets. The second tape will be on the "I Method", and it will show how we drill everything Alive at the SBG's. I think that tape will put to rest the 'SBG guys just spar, they don't drill' nonsense. It will show people how you can teach a beginner in an Alive fashion from day one. It could be subtitled "The I Method, or why you don't ever need dead patterns in Martial Arts". The Third tape will be on our new SBG stand up curriculum.

What is the new SBG stand up curriculum?

Well, in the past I made the mistake that most JKDC people are still making. I taught through 'cross training'. In other words we would work BJJ, then we would box, then wrestle, etc. The problem with that method is two fold. One, you are never going to get into a fight that is just stand up. They just don't exist. The potential of getting taken down is always there. So if you train boxing, or Muay Thai, and then BJJ, what happens is that you are not prepared to sprawl. So one thing that has changed is that we ALWAYS incorporate level changes into every single boxing and stand up drill we do, from day one. This way people can stay on their feet better. Your stand up skills are only as good as your ability to stay on your feet.

Two, is that some people will never be good boxers. Unlike BJJ, boxing is much more attribute driven. Some people cannot relax, or piece together combinations, they are always stiff, etc. But for fighting you don't need to be a great boxer. So our new stand up curriculum consists of straight punches, the boxing blast (a modified straight blast that we have found to be much more effective in full contact then the typical blast), level changes, sprawling, knees, and elbows. This curriculum is something anyone can learn, and something that will teach you to stay on your feet and strike.

For people who want to take people past these basics on to the next stage I will be releasing Rodney King's street boxing series. Rodney is our best stand up fighter bar none. And I think his series will revolutionize how many Martial Artists train stand up. Plus it will have a lot of great knock out footage! At 170 lbs I have watched stalk, pick apart, and knock out much bigger opponents who have a good boxing structure. Fantastic material. Rodney is the reason god created takedown skills!

What kind of things will be in the streetfighting tape. What are the ABC's?

Well I don't want to go to much into it right now. But the A in the ABC method is simply awareness. Awareness is the most important point when it comes to streetfighting and self-defense. No matter who you are, or how well you arm yourself, if you fall a sleep in the wrong place then you may not wake up. Know thy environment. A good example is when I am South Africa. If I wandered into a township I would not wander out. But I travel with people who know where to go and when, (thanks Nuno). So it is not a problem. Also, if you stay away from intoxicated people, and out of intoxication zones, IE: bars, then you can avoid a lot of fights.

The B in ABC's is what I call diving board. And this is not a technique, it's a mindset. It's all the stuff that precedes a confrontation. The talk, the set ups, the adrenaline dump. I use the analogy of a diving board. When you step on to a high dive for the first time, and look down, you get 'scared', you get an adrenaline dump, and your mind messes with you. The longer you linger, the worse it becomes. You begin thinking of all the reasons you would prefer to climb back down the ladder, rather then jump. But, once you jump it's no problem. You hit the water and all your instincts take over and you simply swim. And it can be fun. So I want to teach combat athletes to jump right away and get into the water. Because once they start swimming they are gonna kill whoever they are going against. Combat athletes swim better then anyone else. Just don't let the diving board screw you up. That's where the cowardly, sucker punch streetfighters exist. Once you jump, they are in your world. We have some drills to teach that. A lot of systems and organizations have made a whole big deal out of the diving board. They have systems for walking up to the board, climbing the ladder, dealing with the wind sheer at the top, etc. I hope to take out all the mystery, and mystique from this process and simplify it.

The final part, C, stands simply for confrontation, and that is the final, and physical part of the fight. That involves some simple modifications to what we do. How to use boots as a weapon, open hand boxing, street BJJ, countering biters, and gougers, multiple opponents, etc.

Why do you think so many of your "street smart" critics automatically imply that a combat athlete is clueless about the realities of their environment outside the gym?

Because they are trying to defend their position, and they are scared of combat athletes. Rightfully so! They are smart enough to know once they hit the water they are going to be in the pool with a shark. After all would you really want to streetfight with Rickson, or Couture? If you cannot beat them with rules, what makes you think you could be them without rules? And besides, why assume they are dumb about streetfighting. Rickson grew up in Brazil. He is street smart, and sober. He is not going to let crack head Bob walk up on him and slash his throat. Neither is Couture.

And what about personal goals?

Keep working on self-perfection in my ground game. Perhaps compete more this Year. But mostly I plan to devote my time more to my students this Year then I have in the past. The people at my Gym, and in my ICC class are my priority this Year.

I also still plan on visiting my friends around the world, and bringing more and more like minded people into SBG International as well.

It takes me about two hours a day to return all my e-mail now, but I know our message is getting out there, and it's changing things, and that makes it all worth while.

That seems like business goals, what about personal goals?

Come on Luis, it's all about beautiful, smart, feisty women. You know that.

So True!

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